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> Hello all. I have been lurking in the group for a couple weeks, and have a question. Due to medical issues, looks like I will be letting my medical lapse and fly SP. Have about 5000 hours in GA aircraft, single and twin, lately a couple hundred hours in the last few years in a Piper Arrow. I have narrowed my short list to Challenger 2, Titan, Excalibur and another Challenger clone I can't recall. Unfortunately, once I make a decision I will probably not be able to see my choice in person. The only aircraft I have seen in the flesh is the Titan.
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> SO - anybody have any experience in both Challenger and Titan and want to talk about the differences between them? How they 'feel'? I have read the specs, I'm interested in a 'seat-of-the-pants' feel. Or just the Titan by itself? I think I want a Titan 2, as there are sometimes I want a passenger. How comfortable is the back of the Titan1, I see a lot of people put jump seats back there. Is the 503 adequate, or do you need bigger? Anyone nervous about flying with a two-stroke? And last, with the 582, what is the difference between red head, blue head, gray head?
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> Thanks in advance for any answers.
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I had to let my medical go about 8 years ago (age 37 - I went down young!) and it's definitely not the end of your flying career. I've probably accumulated another 500 or so hours since then...
As for the Challenger I can't comment as I've not flown in one. JD Stewart who's on the list, tho, has loads of flight time in both planes as do some of the other listers, so they'll probably comment on the differences.
IMO, tho, the tornado is about the best you can do in the LSA class. The others I've looked at all have some kind of problem that the tornado does better. Typically they cost too much, have a crappy view, unknown histories, unknown factory support, too much (or too little) stuff in the panel, etc. Other alternatives are planes like trikes, which I personally love, but they're weight-shift and can still cost a fortune, etc.
I have the factory prototype II SS (built by JD and I bought it from him) so all my tornado experience is in that particular model.
The overall performance envelope is approximately like the C 150/152, but with 10x more climb ;). It also has slightly less dynamic roll stability than the typical spam can due to the zero-dihedral wing but it's otherwise like flying anything else that has reduced yaw-roll coupling and a no-dihedral wing. It doesn't do anything weird in flight and is very docile (even cross-controlled stalls give no surprises). Mine has the 26' wing so I'd call its roll rate "stately" compared to the shorter wings (which I've only observed from the ground or on youtube ;)) but still has lots of authority given the aileron spades.
The II S and SS are pretty much 912/jabiru class planes tho, so if you want to run a 2-stroke you're probably only going to want to consider the small single.
As for 2-strokes, I flew the rotax 503 for about a decade. IMO, it's the best deal in aviation for 50hp to crank a prop and the best 2-stroke available period, full stop. At 4 large new it's _dirt_ cheap for 50 hp compared to its competitors (tho you still have to buy a gearbox).
I don't like the 582 however. It's a bit suped up and isn't as reliable as the 503, especially if it's underpowered for the plane. The crankshaft is the weak spot on the 582, the rest of the motor is great tho. I'd personally fly one but only if it's enough power on the plane to not have to run it hard all the time (i.e. 5400 rpm cruise or less). I also still have my 2-stroke toolset too, so....
As for the differences in the 582:
- grey head: the older model 582 prior to 1999 or so.
- blue head: post 99 model with a redesigned cooling system and some changes to the RV shaft setup (it's a rotary valve induction 2-stroke; the 503 and 447 are piston-skirt induction).
- red head: this is not an aviation model, it's based on a sno-mo engine with single ignition and, with the snomo exhaust, generates a LOT more power. I have no idea about the reliability of this one except to say it's pretty suped up. I'd personally avoid the red head as it's a conversion which can affect resale, insurance, etc.
I'd say the 503 seems to be adequate for a Titan I as long as you build it light. Guy Truex (former owner of Titan a/c) flew a titan I all over the place with a 503, so he can probably comment on this a lot more informed than me.
Finally, the only drawback to the 2-strokes is the maintenance schedule. You have to pull them off and do a teardown/cleanup at least every 300 hours and typically more like 150 hours. Leaky crank seals are the achilles heel here. Fortunately, the engines are so simple that this isn't a terrible job if you get factory training and invest in the toolset. Or you can send the motor to one of the 2-stroke experts in the country and they can do it for you.
With the 912 series, you do get very spoiled very quickly at not having to do this tho.
That's my take on it. Good luck and if you select the Titan I think you'll have gotten the best LSA available...
LS
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