Excellent comments.
I have also experienced a few engine outs, with two of them on takeoff (you only need to experience one to become fanatical about learning what needs to be done to survive). As a result of these experiences, I have also spent a great deal of time experimenting with and practicing for "engine out".
Your admonition that one needs to KNOW what altitude is required to successfully complete a "return to the landing strip" is spot on. I have also found, through much experimentation, that if one decides to do this, "nose down hard, and turn hard" provides the lowest expenditure of both time and altitude.
Like you, I think that 600 feet of altitude is the bare minimum requirement in a Titan Tornado, and that this manoevre should be attempted only after one has acquired a great deal of practice.
At this end, I also push the view that one should mentally divide the takeoff sequence into specific segments.
- KNOW how many feet you will consume to get airborne in various density altitude conditions.
-KNOW the approximate altitude at your home airport at which you can push the stick forward and safely land on the remaining runway or over-run.... for EACH runway.
- KNOW where the safest off-airport landing area is for each runway at your home airport until you reach 600 feet (must be more or less straight ahead)
- Practice, "nose down hard, turn hard" returns to the runway until you are completely comfortable with the manoevre (lots of practice at altitude first!)
- Practice "engine out" simulations from all points of the pattern, for each runway at your home base ("Nose down hard, turn hard" still applies).
- While flying cross country, at all times, KNOW where you would head if the engine gets quiet.
Yes, the above-noted points might sound a bit "hard-nosed" to some.... until you have a real engine out.
Best,
Larry
--- In Titanaircraft@yahoogroups.com, Jim Covington <jim@...> wrote:
>
> I have executed power-off 180-degree turns in 300 ft of altitude loss
> (practiced at altitude, of course.) I don't think I'd actually try to
> return with less than 500 ft. I've had 2 engine outs - one on departure
> at about 700 ft (returned to runway) and one at altitude. My procedure
> on the departure engine out wasn't fancy - nose down HARD, turn HARD,
> and then reassess. I'd guess my nose-down attitude was at least 30
> degrees and my bank was around 60. The windscreen was full of ground
> during the maneuver. I had runway overrun directly under me at the time
> (5000+ ft runway, sea level departure) so I knew if I could 180, I'd
> have a landing spot - there would be no need to "stretch" back to the
> airport.
>
> I don't know why you'd start with a 45-degree turn *away* from the
> direction you want to turn. That seems like a significant waste of time
> to me - and you're continuing to head away from the airport during that
> first turn. Every second you're in the air you're falling. So you may
> not be perfectly lined up with the runway when you return - would you
> rather be perfectly lined up with trees short of the runway? I would
> recommend a 210 degree turn immediately, adjusted at the end as required
> to point directly at your planned landing spot. Do the final course
> correction *after* you have the spot made.
>
> Any time I've watched others practice the maneuver, it seems to me they
> always fail to use a steep enough bank. People confuse two needs: the
> need to turn 180 degrees, and the need to conserve as much time as
> possible. The need to conserve time leads them to glide at or under best
> glide even when turning, which limits the amount of bank you can use -
> you're too close to stall - and so the 180 degree turn takes too long.
> GET THE NOSE DOWN, get the plane turned FAST, and then go to best glide.
> You will spend less time turning, and thus have less altitude loss
> during the turn.
>
> That's my .01 cents, yours may differ.
>
>
> Hugh Sontag wrote:
> >
> >
> > Just curious... do you think that a return to the takeoff runway can
> > be done with less than 600 feet AGL, or that the altitude loss will
> > be more than 600 feet?
> >
> > I suggest that this should be practiced in your airplane. Start at
> > 2000' AGL and find out where you're at when you're back where you
> > started, using your GPS as a reference.
> >
> > When I did this in my Tornado II, I found that the altitude lost was
> > 700 feet. The "return to takeoff runway", for me, starts with a
> > 45-degree turn in one direction, then a 180-degree turn in the other
> > direction, then 45 degrees back to the centerline of the takeoff
> > runway.
> >
> > The really bad problem with trying to do this for the first time when
> > the engine is permanently silent is that if things aren't going well,
> > the tendency is to try to "stretch" the glide by raising the nose.
> > Eventually, the airplane stalls, which is the worst possible
> > situation.
> >
> > Better to establish ahead of time what is reasonable for your
> > airplane. If you don't have enough altitude above the ground, don't
> > even think of returning to the runway. You've already proven it can't
> > be done.
> >
> > Hugh Sontag
> >
> > >I don't buy in to the 600 ft number, but the admonition to keep the plane
> > >flying is right on.
> > >
> > >If you stall close to the ground, that's when you die.
> > >
> > >I've never had an outright engine failure, but I've had engines get
> > sick a
> > >couple of times.
> > >
> > >ALWAYS know where you're going to land, if the engine quits. ALWAYS.
> > >
> > >TCS
> > >
> > >Terry C Savage
> > >
> > >Senior Information Technology Manager
> > >
> > >Science Fiction Author, The End of Winter
> > >
> > ><<http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage
> > <http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage>>http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage
> > <http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage>>
> > ><http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage
> > <http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage>>http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage
> > <http://tinyurl.com/end-of-winter-savage>
> > >
> > ><http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/
> > <http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/>>http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/
> > <http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/>
> > >
> > ><<http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/
> > <http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/>>http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/
> > <http://tcsendofwinter.blogspot.com/>>
> > >
> > >====================================
> > >
> > >_____
> > >
> > >From:
> > ><mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>Titanaircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >[mailto:<mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>Titanaircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>]
> > >On Behalf Of Hugh Sontag
> > >Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 7:14 PM
> > >To:
> > <mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>Titanaircraft@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: [Titanaircraft] Re: Fly the airplane
> > >
> > >An airplane "nose dives" when it stalls.
> > >
> > >When I've practiced a sudden loss of engine power, I don't find that
> > >the airplane is hard to get into a 60 mph glide.
> > >
> > >You do need to react, by moving the stick forward, but it's not hard,
> > >if you're convinced that it's the right thing to do.
> > >
> > >I think that in an engine-out situation, you have to know that the
> > >only thing that will work is to keep your airspeed at best glide. If
> > >you try to "stretch" the glide and let the airspeed bleed away, the
> > >airplane will stall.
> > >
> > >If the airplane stalls, and you're close to the ground, you have no
> > >options. There isn't enough altitude to recover flying speed, so the
> > >airplane "noses over" and plummets to the ground.
> > >
> > >So it's crucial to keep the airplane flying, right back down to the
> > >ground, even if you don't like where you're going to have to land it.
> > >Better to have control as you approach the ground. Better to put it
> > >between two trees than let it fall from the sky.
> > >
> > >That's what the phrase "fly the airplane" is all about. Maintain
> > >flying speed, keep control of the airplane. Don't even try to turn
> > >back to the runway if you're 600 feet or less, it can't be done.
> > >You'll survive a controlled landing onto a poor surface, but you
> > >won't survive a stall at 100 feet or more.
> > >
> > >Hugh Sontag
> > >
> > >>If this is true it is very concerning, how can an airplane exibit
> > >>these flight characteristics of rolling over with an engine failure
> > >>and then nose diving. I know the pusher configuration naturally
> > >>pushes the nose forward at wot and the nose will pop up when the
> > >>throttle is pulled back, but the roll over and nose dive? Did the
> > >>nose pop up so hard that his angle of attack put him in a stall with
> > >>a low climb out speed?
> > >>
> > >>--- In
> > >><mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>Titanaircraft@
> > ><mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
> > >>"rico11b" <rico11b@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>
> > >>> I was a friend of Shannon's. I joined your group this morning to
> > >>>post about his passing, but Daleandee beat me to it. Thanks
> > >>>Daleeandee, for getting the word out. I hate this too.
> > >>>
> > >>> The wake will be held Monday night from 7pm to 9pm, and the
> > >>>funeral will be Tuesday at 2 pm. It's at a Babtist church somewhere
> > >>>in Whiteville NC, but I'm not sure of the address at the moment.
> > >>>Once I know I'll post it, if anyone is interested.
> > >>>
> > >>> We still don't have all the details about what happened, but thus
> > >>>far is looks like the engine failed just after takeoff. After that
> > >>>I'm told the plane nosed up and quickly rolled over, and hit nose
> > >>>first from 300 feet or so. I'm still trying to learn more about
> > >>>what happened so this may change some, but that's the latest as I
> > >>>understand it. I'm sorry this had to be my first post to your group.
> > >>>
> > >>> R
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --- In
> > >>><mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com>Titanaircraft@
> > ><mailto:Titanaircraft%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
> > >>>"daleandee" <daleandee@> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I hate to share such extremely sad news ...
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>><<http://www.whitevil>http://www.whitevil
> > ><<http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016
> > <http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016>>http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016
> > <http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016>
> > >5.txt>
> > >le.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af44480327522810165.txt><http://www.whi>http://www.whi
> > >tevil
> > ><<http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016
> > <http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016>>http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016
> > <http://www.whiteville.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af4448032752281016>
> > >5.txt> le.com/articles/2009/06/18/news/doc4a3af44480327522810165.txt
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Please keep this family in your prayers ...
> > >>> >
> > >> > > Dale
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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